Thor/Doctor Who AU - Where the Avengers was a fixed point, and the Doctor never returned for Loki
Loki gasps; he chokes on his own breath. Then it is over and he feels the air around him stir. Feathers, black and gleaming as a volcano’s hearth bed, fall down around him and shelter him from the endless, tormenting brightness of his prison. He curls tighter inward, feeling unfamiliar limbs contract around him. Gingerly, he catches the edge of a feather with his fingertips and feels its silk-slick edge against his skin.
Let’s count them, shall we?!
hoLY SHIT ?? ?
more or less
next time anyone includes a prompt or a review with something equalling “i want REAL loki not crybaby loki” i want to point them at this post
When I see “I want CANON Loki, not emo!crying!Loki, I want to reply, “ok, so now the movies aren’t canon?” He was teary-eyed pretty much all the way through the first movie, including when he was trying to talk Thor out of starting anything in Jotunheim.
There’s a difference though, at least how it’s treated in some fics. To me, emo!crying!Loki would designate that OOC Loki who turns into a sobbing mess at the drop of a hat, the delicate wilting flower type of Loki. In canon, he gets teary eyed and even cries a lot, but not to the point of ceasing to function, plot, yell, being angry and even stabbing people, etc. Not that I couldn’t find Loki as a sobbing mess believable, I just think it would take a lot more as a breaking point than what usually happens in those fics to get that reaction.
But yeah, Loki is not stoic at all. He emotes all over the place, especially when something hits close to home. I always go a bit ??? when people make MCU Loki a master of concealing his emotions.
… to finish what I was saying in the previous answer (multithreading is a bitch) faux-Odin must have found it particularly tasty to send Sif to retrieve the fugitive and see her suffer a bit.
On the other hand, there’s not many female warriors on Asgard and Sif, being female, would be the only type of warrior able to resist the criminal’s weapon of choice, so there is some practical logic to everyone’s actions here.
Oh, and, PS: it’s not Thor Lorelei is talking about, but a former lover of Sif’s, although we don’t know how far things could have gone before Lorelei tore him apart from his family, country, and Sif’s love.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but what bugged me about them muzzling her isn’t precisely this moment. Lorelei has clearly done horrible things and apart from killing her it was the only way to end the enchantment she had over the men. You have a villain who can use her voice as a weapon - fair enough that you disarm her for transport and to stop her.
It was more how Lorelei said that she spent 600 years being muzzled in prison. She described it as torture. So much so that she would rather be dead than go back. Frankly, it probably would’ve been more merciful to kill her than do that to her again. It would’ve been more merciful to kill her than sentence her to that type of imprisonment for life in the first place.
Like, I can’t believe that Asgard with all its fancy tech couldn’t have come up with another way of restraining her that didn’t necessitate that being on her for her entire sentence. It’s clear that women in Asgard know how to fight even if they’re not warriors - it wouldn’t have been that much of a problem to find some female guards for her. Hell, just give the male guards ear plugs or the equivalent. Surely they had to have some magic that would have worked to stop her instead of her being muzzled all of the time?
After all, Loki wasn’t able to get out of his cell, even if he could use magic within it. Why not place her in something similar?
Also, pretty sure Lorelei is just taunting Sif here so she kills her (not that she probably isn’t taking some twisted pleasure from it either, just saying).
So many interesting things to discuss!
I am going to begin with the fact that you are probably wrong about the women of Asgard all knowing to fight. So far, we’ve seen Sif, Frigga and Lorelei fight, some better than others, but all other women are extras looking pretty chill in the background whilst the manly men of Asgard save the day. All wearing those long and impractical dresses.
Do you know what is the ultimate proof of Asgard’s inherent sexism and the fact that women as a whole are no warriors? Lorelei is. Because all they needed was a cohort of female guards to keep Lorelei inside her cell, but obviously there are no women amongst the Einherjar, bar Sif herself, someone we’ve been told early in the first movie had to fight to win her place there.
And speaking of the cell, of course Lorelei would consider it torture to have been silenced for six centuries. It is. But how can you tell that she had to wear that very same, very showy mask and not some discreeter device, if she wasn’t simply surrounded by a silencing forcefield or some thing of the sort?
Firstly, during the last 600 years I reckon the prisoner was allowed to clean herself, to feed, and to brush her teeth. Secondly, did Loki or any of the other prisoners have obnoxious jewellery in prison? Not really. Loki wore the muzzle until back in Asgard, probably to prevent him from exerting any psychic influence, visibly to show the humans how much of a prisoner he was, which was rather important at that moment since he was being snatched from Earthly justice…
So, no, I really don’t believe Lorelei spent half her life wearing that huge clunky thing on her face—but it does beg the question, why is she even alive?
There is a possibility that Asgard doesn’t have death penalty, which we could rationalise with the hypothesis that given the tiny amount of their citizens (given the diminutive size of their world) they are reluctant to execute one of their own; it would seem odd, though, considering their obsession with honour, military prowess, duty, and the general fact that Asgard is something of an absolute monarchy. Maybe it’s women they refuse to kill. This is a sexist place, after all. Maybe Lorelei was of too noble a family? We’ll never know.
Did she really want to die? Bah. She knew she’d been defeated, and that she was going to get back to her cell for good. “You’d better kill me ‘cause I ain’t going back” is a classical line in those moments, in every action movie ever. Don’t tell me she couldn’t have killed herself back in jail, it’s not like she lacked time.
I probably wasn’t as clear as I’d meant to be about the women fighting thing. I didn’t mean that there are lots of women warriors. I meant that despite the warrior thing being pretty much reserved for the menfolk, that the women would still know how to fight. At least the basics. Just like Lorelei isn’t a warrior, but still knows how to wield a sword; the same way Frigga is shown to fight. Seems like Asgard would be that kind of place - don’t let the women participate in the battles, but still expect them to know how. And while the dresses are long and impractical, it didn’t exactly stop Frigga from kicking ass either.
so yeah, I totally don’t think women warriors are a thing on Asgard, apart from Sif. And as for the female guards, I got the impression from what she said that Lorelei’s treatment was boiled down to ‘lock her up and throw away the key’. That they didn’t bother thinking about the problem of restraining her beyond the muzzle. I wasn’t trying to say that there necessarily would be female guards on Asgard in general, but that they didn’t even bother getting any once they had Lorelei contained so that silencing her all the time wasn’t necessary.
I mean, if you’re already going through the trouble of keeping her alive, why wouldn’t you have people on hand who could deal with her, who could interact with her to keep her somewhat sane? (Though they might have had. Sif says Lorelei escaped during the Dark Elf invasion, there might’ve been enough chaos around that it allowed Lorelei to slip past them. And if that, unlikely as it may be, is the case, they’re probably dead too, considering only Sif went to fetch her. I’m veering too far into hypotheticals here…)
And even if it had been a discreeter device, the problem of taking her voice away entirely is still there. I think it’s horrible to consider that she wouldn’t have been able to speak at all for 600 years. While yes, her voice is a weapon, I don’t see why Asgard couldn’t have engineered a way to allow her to speak in some fashion, even if it’s only to herself. Then again, Asgard doesn’t really strike me as a place that cares much at all for the mental health and basic comforts of their prisoners. Apart from Loki’s, the cells had no furnishings whatsoever. And if they were just the equivalent of holding cells, why put Loki there and not somewhere designed for long term incarceration?
Basically, it’s the likelihood that they kept her silenced for 600 years that bothers me, not the muzzle in particular.
While it is a classical line in those moments, Lorelei went a bit beyond just saying it. She was actively trying to goad Sif into doing it. Perhaps she only realized she’d rather die than go back once she escaped and realized the full horror of being locked up away like that for so long?
But I had understood! And I didn’t mean that one cannot fight in an impractical dress; but that the fact that women are meant to wear extremely impractical dresses that help differentiate the genders on Asgard so visibly is a proof that the roles are very separate.
Looking at the cuirass, the vambraces and the asymmetric pauldron they all wear as jewellery, certainly not functional but reminiscent of a male apparel, it is evident that the elite may teach its girls how to fight, and I wouldn’t be too surprised if choreographed combat had a huge part in their cultural life.
Which reminds me I have yet to address the subject of knowledge, studies, and art in general in Asgard, don’t worry Reinette, I’d never forget—but that’s not our point for the moment. Our point is: women are not meant to fight. Perhaps they’re taught how to defend themselves, and after all the outside world is pretty dangerous and they have such an extended lifespan, but there isn’t a single woman in Odin’s armies, and by the way I think by this point we can safely rule out the Valkyries.
Male guards, then, and from what we have seen in Thor 2 these guards do patrol often in the dungeons. Which means Lorelei had to be kept silent at all time; beside, as we’ve seen, a breakdown can happen, you never know—she must be restrained and men can’t be trusted around her.
Apart from that, we know nothing of her life condition in prison. She did say that she was muzzled, or silenced, we don’t even know if that was meant to be taken literally, but where does she say that she was kept in the same type of cell, with the same absence of accommodations, as Loki himself? Who, by the way, was the only prisoner about whom we’re explicitly being told that he was meant to remain there indefinitely; all other prisoners, all Marauders, were locked up for holding at the very least right after their capture on Vanaheim, and we have no proof that they wouldn’t have been given more comfort afterwards. And don’t come speaking about a loo, because it’s clearly hidden behind the walls or else they were expecting Loki to hold his bladder for a very long time.
Speaking of a long time… Yeah. It’s barely relevant to try and convert Asgardian years into human ones, the same way we do with dog years (suffice to say Loki isn’t a teenager, for chrissake, fandom) but 600 years are still more than one half of Lorelei’s life, because she’s clearly younger or roughly the same age as Loki (currently 1,049) and Thor.
But what can we say? Lorelei has maimed and killed, and yes, raped, and for some reason was left alive, which caused her much suffering.
I really, really wonder why they didn’t kill her in the first place. I don’t regard putting down people as anything close to ethical, but I really wonder why such traitor to her Realm would have been left alive.
Yeah, I pretty much agree about the specific gender roles in Asgard and that women are not meant to fight there. Where I went wrong, I think, is in assuming that Asgard would (and should) give two shits about keeping someone silenced like that all the time to perhaps consider giving Lorelei female guards. So she wouldn’t *have* to be silenced all the time.
I didn’t say she was kept in the same cell. Or, at least, that wasn’t what I meant to say. But the only cells we *do* see are completely empty of anything, other than Loki’s (and if I recall correctly, in a deleted scene Thor refers to all that as luxuries, implying it wasn’t something they normally had in cells. Though he could have simply been refering to the books). I guess they bring in some basic furnishings only when they know someone will be staying longer. I mean, if those cells we see are just holding cells, I just don’t get why Loki would be held there.
Hehe, I wasn’t going to start in on a loo. I pretty much figured the same thing :D
(I totally don’t subscribe to the ‘Loki is a teenager’ thing, but I do find it fun to speculate about. Not to mention that post that was going around with him being the equivalent of 17 had so many taken for granted assumptions about pretty much everything but the math involved that it’s impossible to come up with any definite conclusion beyond ‘no, he’s meant to be portrayed as a teenager’)
I don’t regard a death sentence as desirable either, but I’m also wondering why they didn’t kill her. They obviously hadn’t bothered to give a go at rehabilitation, she presents a constant threat when locked up, and if they kept her silenced all the time she’s clearly not going to be be of a pleasant disposition if/when she escapes (which such a long life span is only going to give her more opportunities for).
I mean, if Odin said that Loki would’ve been executed if not for Frigga, one has to wonder why Lorelei’s crimes (which seem to be of a similar magnitude) wouldn’t have gotten the same sentence. Unless someone powerful spoke for her, I guess. Or Asgard really *does* subscribe to the ‘we don’t execute women’ thing.
"If I’m for the axe, then for mercy’s sake, just swing it!"
"Kill me. I’d rather die than go back to that place."